How Unicorn Space Will Bring You Back to Life with Eve Rodsky

As moms, we can get lost in the identity of being a mom and spouse and that can have some pretty serious consequences for both their physical and mental health. Find out what unicorn space is and how it can help you get your life back.

In this podcast episode, we welcome back Eve Rodsky, author of the New York Times best-selling author of Fair Play as well as the National Bestseller, Find Your Unicorn Space, and most recently, the documentary “Fair Play”. She offers real-world solutions to communicating with others.

We discuss why commodity care (getting your hair done, or getting a message) isn’t really self-care like we’ve been told, what are the 3 biggest hurdles that women face when trying to create their own unicorn space, and where to start when looking to find your own unicorn space!

Resources We Shared:

No Guilt Mom Podcast #151: 4 Toxic Time Messages We Tell Ourselves (& what we can do about it) with Eve Rodsky

Fair Play Instagram

Fair Play: A Game-Changing Solution for When You Have Too Much to Do (and More Life to Live) by Eve Rodsky

Find Your Unicorn Space: Reclaim Your Creative Life in a Too-Busy World by Eve Rodsky

FAIR PLAY Documentary- A film by Jennifer Siebel Newsom in partnership with Hello Sunshine. You can find it streaming now on Apple TV, Amazon Prime Video, VUDU, YouTube, ans Google Play.

Visit No Guilt Mom

Rate & Review the No Guilt Mom Podcast on Apple here. We’d love to hear your thoughts on the podcast!

MOMignited Summit- This is a free online event to help you find what fires you up, eliminate what drains you, and finally stop feeling like you're just getting by, so you can show up as the mom you want to be.  Happening LIVE Oct. 9th-Oct.13th! Get your free ticket now at www.momignited.com

Transcript

Transcripts for No Guilt Mom Podcast Ep 175 

Please note: Transcripts are created using AI. There may be some errors.

[00:00:00] JoAnn Crohn: Welcome to The No Guilt Mom podcast. I have your host, JoAnn Crohn. Joined here by my illustrious co-host, Brie Tucker. 

[00:00:09] Brie Tucker: Why hello hello, everybody. How are you? 

[00:00:11] JoAnn Crohn: It's a peek-a-boo co-host. 

[00:00:12] Brie Tucker: I'm delayed trying to think of ways to make visual gags for the people that are watching this on YouTube.

[00:00:17] JoAnn Crohn: Yeah. If you haven't gone and watched us on YouTube yet, you gotta go because I mean, we we're rocking some great fashion today. Actually. I see the, the same color. So we do coordinate if we were here, but I'm not gonna tell you that color you have to go see on YouTube. What color are wearing. 

[00:00:33] Brie Tucker: Can you guess the color that both JoAnn and I are wearing today? 

[00:00:38] JoAnn Crohn: And go subscribe to the No Guilt Mom YouTube channel while you are there!

[00:00:41] Brie Tucker: Yes. 

[00:00:42] JoAnn Crohn: But we have a fantastic episode for you. We have, oh my. We didn't even call her the two timer. She's a two timer now . 

[00:00:50] Brie Tucker: Oh, we forgot to call her a two timer. Oh, we, she would've loved that too. I think 

[00:00:55] JoAnn Crohn: she would've loved it. It's the biggest compliment we can give you here at No Guilt Mom because it means you're a second time guest.

You're on again. We loved you so much. You're like, One of our homies now. Yes, , but it's the Amazing Eve Rodsky and Eve is a New York Times bestselling author of Fair Play and the National Bestseller, Find Your Unicorn Space, and a recent documentary as well. Fair Play, which is on Hulu and Eve was born and raised by a single mom in New York City, now lives in Los Angeles with her husband Seth, and her three. children and we just always love talking with Eve. And throughout this we also talk about our Balance VIP coaching. 

[00:01:36] Brie Tucker: Yes. Which it's perfect timing for this episode everybody, because we are actually opening up our balance program and we talk a lot about Eve's work and balance, don't we? 

[00:01:47] JoAnn Crohn: Yeah. We make it at a really core part of it, especially this idea of unicorn space, which you are gonna find more about here in this episode.

So let's get on with the show. 

Welcome back Eve to the podcast. Yeah. We're so excited to have you here. 

[00:02:03] Eve Rodsky: Feels like I saw you yesterday, . 

[00:02:04] Brie Tucker: I know. I think just like yesterday it's been a crazy, like time is just flying. 

[00:02:09] Eve Rodsky: It just flies anymore. I know. Especially the end of the year. So it has, 

[00:02:13] JoAnn Crohn: and like you've been so busy. I've been following all your socials, like you have a huge campaign going on with like, is it Proctor Gamble?

[00:02:19] Eve Rodsky: Yes. That's been my dream actually, since. Literally, I think the start in 2011 when I had two, very, very small sons was thinking about how we don't replicate these patterns to this next generation. So our new campaign with Proctor and Gamble is based on this idea that we've now really encouraged girls to code, but we've never encouraged boys to care.

And even as gender becomes more fluid, there's still these incredible gender constructs. A super majority of the men I interviewed in 17 countries, Brie and Joanne, still told me that they were uncomfortable, buying a doll. They would not proactively buy a doll for their son. So that's what we're doing.

So Proctor and Gamble is working to close the chore gap and so it really felt synergistic. Like we don't work with brands typically unless it's a long-term partnership and they're actually committed to change in the area we are. So it's been very exciting. 

[00:03:17] JoAnn Crohn: I mean, that is so exciting, what you said, like, we've never taught boys to care, and especially in the advertising realm and all the things they see on tv, I, I'm excited to see that because also you don't know how to do the things until you see the things.

That's where you get the ideas that it's even possible. So to have this gender change in the home and to have these gender roles reverse, of course, like of course you have to see it and it has to be widespread. So that is so exciting. Not not what we wanna talk about today. Cuz I had to go off on it.

I had to talk about that cause I thought it was cool. But today we wanna talk about your concept of unicorn space because it is something that we share with our Balance VIP coaching community. We call it unicorn time in there. And it's an essential part of. being a person. Can you explain a little bit about what Unicorn space really is?

[00:04:13] Eve Rodsky: So I'm gonna nerd out with you both since we're in like a 2 0 1 together before . It was really interesting, progression through Fair Play, which was sort of alarming. where women, especially who said to me, I want to play fair. I want my partner to take on more of the domestic workloads, especially if they had kids in fourth grade or above were actually telling, so that would be like a 10 years post having their first child, were telling me that they wouldn't even know what to do with that time, that newfound time that they had. Mm-hmm. . What we're seeing, they would use it for work, or they would use it to binge watch tv. And it was really alarming to me, So that's sort of how a book about creativity and burnout became a sequel to Fair Play, right? A lot of people thought the sequel would be, which we're doing now. A book in the business, right? Bringing Fair Play to the business worlds and women do non-pro promotable tasks, at alarming rates there, but that's which is needed. That's coming. That's coming. But it really was unfinished business, this idea of what we call unicorn space.

So why do we have to give it a new name? This idea of space for you? Again, because when women were telling me that they were gonna fill that time, it was typically with commodified wellness. So it would be like dyeing their hair or manicure, or it would be a spin class. It would be basic self-care, or it would be adult friendships.

All important things. All important things. Mm-hmm. But it wasn't gonna be the antidote to burnout. And so I think what I wanna explain about this concept of unicorn space is really, it's this idea that you need space for things that make you come alive. That make you say, I can't believe I just did that in not a regretful way, but in a surprising way for yourself.

And the reason why we need space for this is because I really wish JoAnn and Brie could tell you, you know, and we've said this before, right, that a walk around the block would be the antidote to burnout. I wish I could tell you that an adult friendship would be the antidote to burnout, but really the only antidote to burnout, and again we've alluded to this, is being consistently interested in your own life.

I think the consistent interest in your own life, the consistency of it was, was triggering for women cuz they could get their head around, once a year, girls trip mm-hmm. , but they could not get their head around this idea of what does it mean to be consistently interested in my own life.

[00:06:50] JoAnn Crohn: Because it's hard. I think for moms to get their head around it. They feel like they're taking away from their family first of of all, because that's the message we've been fed, that kids come first, family comes first, and whatever time's left over, that's what we do. We stay up late. We wake up early in the morning to get it in.

[00:07:10] Brie Tucker: And we're also, yeah. And we're also told, like you, the examples you gave that just doing something for ourselves like. Going to an exercise class or getting our nails done, or watching our favorite like, you know, show is enough. That's enough. You don't need to do more than that. No, no, no.

Stop there. That's good. , 

[00:07:30] Eve Rodsky: Like what you do here is a unicorn space. And I'll explain, right? You have gone through the hurdles.

 You've decided you have a permission to be unavailable from just, you know, your, your, your typical roles, which would've been parents and partner. And then you said to yourself, I'm gonna do three really difficult things, which is what a unicorn space really is. A unicorn space. And you'll know you're in it.

It has three elements to it. It has curiosity. Like real curiosity, values-based curiosity. And I talk about that in the book a lot. That is not, I'm curious why my child's poop is yellow, as one woman said to me. But real values-based curiosity. So you had that. I wonder what it would be like for Brie and me to get together and bring this message that we're doing in our coaching to the masses.

then you had to connect with each other and to podcast guests, which is always scary to ask people if they wanna come on. And then also, the hardest part of connection is the completion, right? You had to actually, even if you don't like the episode, you have to still edit it and upload it, right? And then you don't know what the world's gonna do with it.

Those three pieces of curiosity, connection, and completion make this. Space for you to, uh, a unicorn space. And I think it's really important to recognize that it has to have a component of sharing with the world. Hmm. Which is why this is a long answer to say the spin class. The nails are not a unicorn space.

They're, they are self-care, but it doesn't have this component of mental. Longevity. The things that I'm looking for for women are the things that will help us, again, combat that burnout. And part of it is the share with the world component. 

[00:09:20] JoAnn Crohn: The share with the world component. That is so interesting because it goes beyond my, my like what I've been thinking of unicorn space as, because I've been looking at it, I guess more as a hobby, but it's like one other thing you said is it needs to be something that makes you excited in your own life.

It makes you feel alive. And I'm like trying to look back and I'm like, what have I done that makes me feel excited and feel alive? I mean, one of it was we went to. like and traveled the girls girls trip. 

[00:09:53] Eve Rodsky: Love it. And then that travel is definitely a unicorn space for sure. 

[00:09:56] JoAnn Crohn: It's unicorn space. Mm-hmm. . And then I think the other thing, like it was just last week, made me feel alive.

Just putting myself out there and pitching myself for this huge like presentation and getting accepted and like sharing the world. I was like running around like crazy. 

[00:10:09] Eve Rodsky: And there's some fear there, right? Cuz you're gonna have to present. Mm-hmm. , you're gonna have to share yourself with the world. So that's the thing.

A unicorn space has that little bit. I can't believe I'm doing this. I can't believe I just did that. That's the. The nature of it that makes it so special. I think, again, I'll just nerd out for one more second about the science thing. 

[00:10:30] JoAnn Crohn: We love nerding, 

[00:10:32] Eve Rodsky: so this is the science. I think what happened over the past 10 years is we've become too, really, too focused on happiness and, and I started to uncover this as I was researching for Find Your Unicorn Space, the book that we're, um, unpacking.

And what I realized about the past 10 years of all this positive psychology and happiness was that even the happiness researchers were telling me that people were misunderstanding their message. Mm-hmm. . And I think even when we say to our kids, it's the wrong message. Like I remember before I knew this research, I would say to my kids, I just want you to be happy.

I just want you to be happy. You know, whatever you do, I just want happiness. . And the truth is that that's actually a really fucked up message because anybody who's happy, like, I don't know, during what we just went through the past three years is probably like a sociopath, . I didn't care about the world.

Right. So it is, yeah, right. It's hard. So I think the, what I had to do was really replace it and go to the mental health experts that I loved. and once they said to me that the true definition of mental health is not being happy all the time, the true definition of mental health is having the appropriate emotion at the appropriate time and the ability to strength to weather it.

As my son Ben says to me all the time, I know, mom, you don't want me to be happy. You want me to have the appropriate emotion at the appropriate time. And the ability and strength to weather it. Wait, ability and strength. He's 11. He's 11. 

[00:11:55] Brie Tucker: An insult. That's good. Yes. 

[00:11:57] Eve Rodsky: A little statement there. . He definitely knows now cuz he hears me say it.

That unicorn space is your ability and strength to weather it. Mm-hmm. , it's the umbrella. I'm not gonna stop the rain for anybody. We're, you're not gonna stop the rain for anybody, but your podcast together is a unicorn space. Your presentation is a unicorn space. Cause what it does for you, JoAnn gives you an umbrella.

And then that umbrella feeling stays with you during the mundane and overwhelm, which is most of our lives, to be honest. 

[00:12:26] Brie Tucker: Yeah. 

[00:12:27] Eve Rodsky: And it's a better way to combat it, that umbrella, as opposed to what we've been taught to do is Brie said earlier, which is binge watch these private pursuits, binge watch tv, um, mommy juice, right?

This idea that we have to medicate ourselves through parenting or, you know, some of the women I interviewed or edibles starting at 12, um, every weekend. So instead of this unicorn space, we've been told and conditioned to numb ourselves through these years, and that's actually a better place for women to be.

If we're sort of numb zombies, then we can't like topple the patriarchy, right? We can't ask her positions of power. So I actually think this is more systemic than we actually think and we need to, oh man, the patriarchy, . 

[00:13:11] Brie Tucker: I thought we were just mis, you know, just being told to, give our support to our family and. Most likely our husbands and whatnot, but thinking that it's even bigger than that, a bigger thought process of keeping us in our box so that we don't try to get out of it. 

[00:13:28] JoAnn Crohn: So where do women go from here if they have no idea what their unicorn space is, right? What can they do? 

[00:13:38] Eve Rodsky: Well, I think before we can get even into understanding, curiosity, connection, completion, uh, I think we have to address the three things that women told me were the hardest hurdles. 

[00:13:50] JoAnn Crohn: Mm-hmm. 

[00:13:50] Eve Rodsky: to even thinking about one of those three Cs or all, all of them. And the three biggest hurdles, again, this comes now, I started this research in 2011, so this would be, you know, you know, 12, almost a over a decade of research.

What, what I heard from women was that, the number one issue was that they did not believe that they had a permission to be unavailable from their family. , that was number one. 

[00:14:16] JoAnn Crohn: Oh yeah. 

[00:14:17] Eve Rodsky: That availability was actually part of their identity. And, and we would do an exercise where I would have them hold their phone and, and picture the school calling, uh, if they had children and, not picking up.

And these women were telling me they were getting a stress response just from like the imaginary exercise right there. 

[00:14:34] Brie Tucker: Oh yeah. 

[00:14:34] Eve Rodsky: Was, was pounding. They started to feel, a little bit nauseous, so we know. That availability has really been conditioned into our identity. And we talked a lot about this, I think in episode one.

So people want sort of a refresher about why that is. I would say go back to our first time together because we really talk about yeah. How women's time is not, we've been conditioned to believe our time is not valuable. 

[00:14:58] JoAnn Crohn: Yeah. Mm-hmm. . 

[00:14:59] Eve Rodsky: But the other thing that happens is even if you and I can convince you today, or we can together convince people that they deserve unavailability, from their roles as parents, partners, professionals, whatever those roles are.

Then what was happening next, number two was that women were telling me that guilt and shame was ruining. Their unicorn space experiences. So I'll give you an example. There was a single mother who I was following and she really was very interested in this idea of unicorn space. All the way from fair play to be honest, because this, she got very triggered by, there's a story I tell about this woman who said she lost her permission to be interesting.

And so this single mom, she told me that she on dm, this was through Instagram or LinkedIn or somewhere, but she told me that, her rent stabilized apartment building on the upper West side has, a music room. and because she has, she shares it with Juilliard students and she actually used to play piano.

Mm-hmm. , she said she got really curious and excited about like what new musicals, um, she could play and, you know, bought Hamilton sheet music or whatever it was, Red's sheet music. Um, and she booked time, which is, takes active step forward to book time to, to be in this music room. But she said when she got there, She could see that the sun was setting and her child doesn't like to be in daycare when it's dark out, and so she just closed the piano, took her sheet music, and left.

[00:16:33] JoAnn Crohn: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:34] Eve Rodsky: to go pick up her son. So what I found was that guilt and shame are very interesting emotions because other emotions, women tell me they're willing to sit with like their rage or their resentment, and they'll keep it inside for a really long time. But guilt and shame were emotions that people acted on immediately, which I thought was so interesting.

Like you actually change your behavior in the moment. Based on that guilt and shame. So that's important to understand that even if you can believe you have your permission to be unavailable, guilt and shame can possibly ruin your unicorn space unless you're willing to interrupt guilt and shame and say it's not gonna affect my decision making in the moment.

Yeah. And then finally the third hurdle was asking for what you need, which is always the hurdle, I think, or at least it always has been a hurdle for me. 

[00:17:19] JoAnn Crohn: It's, it's been a hurdle for me too. And it's so interesting that guilt and shame are those emotions that you act on immediately because like through reading your work, and I mean, I've been working on this now since I read your book three years ago, four years ago, but, um, Kids come and ask Mom first.

Yes. Like you say, like the she fault parent. Kids come and ask mom for everything first. And something that I have put into my vocabulary now is if I know my husband is home and my kids come to me, I'm like, so what did dad say about this ? And they'll look at me with the Blake face. They'll be like, I didn't ask him.

I'll be like, you go check with him. You go check with him right now. and the first time was hard. It was really hard because I'm like, oh my gosh, am I inconveniencing my husband? I'm not doing this for my kids. How dare I do this? But I do have to say, doing it over and over again. I'm realizing the unfairness of it all, that everything was on me.

Yeah. And now I'm enjoying asking that question, what does dad have to say? Because 

[00:18:17] Eve Rodsky: love it. 

[00:18:18] JoAnn Crohn: It needs to be like shared that responsibility in house. 

[00:18:24] Eve Rodsky: Absolutely. And I think the real, the real hard part for me and what's actually been really exciting, since I last saw you was, what was interesting to me about the fair play journey was that when I went to lawmakers and we've been out now, we have a fair play documentary on Hulu, we've sort of been out on the fair play journey for a long time. I've been out there a long time and even before the pandemic and when I framed the issue of women's time as a workplace issue, as issue where, you know, we're gonna lose 30 to 40 years of women's labor force participation, which we did frame it as even before the pandemic. This, the society didn't feel.

Urgency to me, I, I didn't feel people picking up their pen, especially when I met with lawmakers, they weren't sort of picking up their pen, but when it was actually framed as a unicorn space issue, what I mean by that is that it affects people's mental and physical health. If they don't get to value their own time or have time choice over how they use their time, then all of a sudden people started to pick up their pen.

Because the women who told me that they had no extra time, that they were just parents partner. and Professionals. In 2011, I had 200 in my cohort, and I'm picking this up even though your listeners won't see it, but I'm picking up the Fair Play card. It was a spreadsheet back then, as you know, the shit I do spreadsheet.

So it wasn't cards, it was tabs, , but, but same, same cards, tabs. So I would ask them, how many tabs are you holding? And in the spreadsheet, if women told me that they could identify that they were the main lead parent on, or the lead person on 67 out of a hundred tabs. So typically if you hold 67 cards, it means you have children.

If they were holding 67 of those tabs and they. also worked full-time for pay. So those were 200 women I had in 2011. Mm-hmm. , I've been able to follow those 200 women, thank God we've actually kept tabs on all those women. And what we found 10 years later, or more than 10 years later, is that every single one of those women is being treated for a stress-related illness or self-medicating.

[00:20:39] JoAnn Crohn: That's crazy. So

[00:20:40] Eve Rodsky: that's what I don't want for you. That's why there's urgency. Create a creative life, a unicorn space. Is really not optional because otherwise these were the top five we had. Insomnia was number one, overactive thyroid was number two, hair loss was number three., S. S R I use was number four. And actually cancer Diagnosises was number five, which was really shocking to me 

[00:21:03] JoAnn Crohn: that is crazy that. All of these health related illnesses come from just not valuing or putting, prioritizing creativity. So like once people have started and recognized that shame and guilt is keeping them held back and, they know they need this, but they've been caring for their kids for so long that they have no idea where they're even going to start with this, what can they do?

[00:21:30] Eve Rodsky: Well, my favorite thing to do is to really, think about where you're lacking. So a great place to start is as we go back to those three Cs, curiosity, connection, and completion. It's actually to start where you feel the most disconnected from. So I'll explain what I mean. So if you feel like I literally have no idea. what I would be curious about, then you start there. If you think to yourself, I'm really lonely, I've been really isolated in this journey. Um, and by the way, for anyone of your listeners, you know, kudos to them because part of breaking isolation is listening to podcasts and other women to say like, you're not alone.

So thank you for creating this community for, for people. I said it's a unicorn space for sure. And so that would be loneliness and isolation. That would be connection, and then completion would be another place. And so one woman said to me, and I wrote about this in the books, it was funny that she feels curious all the time and she feels connected, but she's a graveyard of unfulfilled dreams.

And what she meant by that was every time her GoDaddy accounts would come up and she would see. , like, do you wanna renew this domain name? She'd be like, oh my God. Like, I forgot about that idea. So she was like a wasin idea, but for her it was this idea like, I don't even know how to complete all of these ideas that I'm thinking about.

So I would say start with whatever is the issue. Because that's really helpful to, really start journaling and thinking about like, what, what am I lacking right now? Am I really lacking that wonder? That lifelong learning journey, am I lacking, you know, connection with others or am I lacking, this ability to complete something that I'm really, you know, thinking about?

[00:23:19] JoAnn Crohn: That is a great place to start because. I think that, you know, different people I talk to would say something different. Like, it's not a one size fits all answer. Uh, and I'm thinking of my own mom here and where I could encourage her to find some, some unicorn space, which I think she's already found in gardening.

But, oh, 

[00:23:37] Eve Rodsky: gardening, yes, she loves it has to be a, but you have to have a share with the royal component. So that's the thing. These solo pursuits are, don't really have the mental and physical benefit. That I'm looking for for people, which is she would, I want her to uplevel her gardening if she want. Why doesn't she?

As one woman did in my, and I wrote about her too, I think it was called The Ugly Vegetable Contest. She entered like some weird zucchini into an ugly vegetable contest. I didn't even know like that. But maybe your mother can grow an ugly vegetable,

[00:24:05] JoAnn Crohn: She could! 

[00:24:06] Eve Rodsky: Give her bounty in her garden to a local school.

Or to, um, friends in the neighborhood, an acute basket. Like that's sort of, that's the sharing component that we just wanna up just up-level her one, one level. 

[00:24:19] JoAnn Crohn: Yeah. And that would, that would take care of like, well, the connection with the world, because something I've seen like repeated again and again on media.

I just listened to a podcast episode about this yesterday about men. Um, the loneliness factor Yeah. Is how like we are just so isolated in society. and I mean a unicorn space that you share with the world that, that like clicks off the, Hey, here's how I'm going to connect with others and 

[00:24:44] Eve Rodsky: get my, and that's how I met my neighbor.

We, yeah, we recently moved actually, and in our old neighborhood, we didn't know any of our neighbors, but in this neighborhood one of our neighbors is a beekeeper. Um, and so she makes her own honey, which I think is so interesting. And so she brought. for Roshana. Like a Happy New Year, honey, because it's a Jewish custom to dip cha our bread into, into honey, or apples into honey for a sweet new year.

So I met her because it was, and I will love her forever. I will love her forever because what a nice gesture. And it was really the best honey, you know, ever because it's, it was fresh, it was from her garden. I got to learn about what it means to keep bees. Just really interesting. 

[00:25:28] JoAnn Crohn: That's cool because I like wanna give stuff to my neighbors.

I'm like, oh, I should do that. I should be like more open and I can never get my head around it. But thinking about it in terms of just sharing a unicorn space, ugh. Oh, my neighbors across the street are Mormon, so I can't bring them a margarita, but 

yes. Like I have to figure out something else. I was gonna say another neighbor.

[00:25:47] Eve Rodsky: Another neighbor. Well, you know what you could do, like I have so many fun ideas lately for unicorn space. Like I'm really interested in mixology. The thing about unicorn space is that once you unleash. It your creativity in one area. Right. So for me, it was really starting to write books again.

Then it was starting to dance during the pandemic, and then now I wanna write a murder mystery. You start the I read . Well, I'm Thank you. You'll be my test reader. 

[00:26:13] JoAnn Crohn: I'm a thriller reader. I read all of my, oh my gosh. 

[00:26:15] Eve Rodsky: So am I, and I'm starting to get annoyed that every single thriller has, Like any, any protagonist in the thrillers, parents have died in a car crash when they were kids, and I'm like, I don't

Why does that have to be always the plot line? 

[00:26:26] JoAnn Crohn: I have some to recommend to you, Eve, when we get off I'll, 

[00:26:29] Eve Rodsky: Oh my gosh. Please. I just, when I just finished mm-hmm. good. Tell me. I always am looking for another thriller, but basically it's just, I think the fear diminishes as you start doing more and more things because you just don't give a shit anymore.

Mm-hmm. , you know, I think if you're, you're out of a unicorn space routine or practice, you know, when you do anything, you feel like the whole world's gonna look at you or laugh at you for whatever you're doing, but once you get into the rhythm of it, then it really is easier to complete things because you realize it doesn't have to be perfection.

I think that's the good thing about start. is that so many people say they don't wanna start because they don't. If they did a podcast, what if it wasn't, you know, a top 10 podcast on Apple? Like they're so used to being excellent that a unicorn space gets sort of dropped into like the excellence bucket.

Mm-hmm. and I just want people to feel like they can be. Themselves, they can try. And it does not have to be perfection. I, 

[00:27:27] JoAnn Crohn: I love that message and I think it's so, so important. And Eve, thank you so much for joining us here again and sharing all of this great stuff about unicorn space. And I hope that if you're listening right now, you are thinking what your unicorn space can be and what you can try.

But, we're so thankful for you. We love you. Thank you. Thank you. 

[00:27:47] Eve Rodsky: Yes. I wanna end on one tip. Which I think is really was fun recently. So I love Moleskins and I have, you know, different colors for everyone. So I would ask your listeners, go get a moleskin, start a guilt and shame journal.

It's really fun to do. So when you feel guilty about something, you just write it down in your journal. And so for me it would be like, I feel guilty cause I didn't put, I'm not putting Anna to bed. . Then what you do is you cross out, I feel guilty because we talked a little bit about this and you, and you put in, I made the decision because instead now the fun part about the guilt and shame journal is that you feel really that acute guilt in the moment, right?

I feel guilty cuz I didn't put out, I'm not putting out of the bed tonight. I'm making the decision not to put out of the bed tonight so I can be with JoAnn and Brie. , when you look back a year later and you see like you felt guilty for going to coffee with a friend because you didn't like take your child on a walk, you're, you think you, you look at it and you're like, what is literally wrong with me

So I think it's actually guilt and shame in, in retrospect is really fun to look at because you realize it's, it's really a very bizarre emotion because it's not, the things we, we feel guilty about are really not things we should be feeling guilty about at all. 

[00:29:01] JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, I love it. I love it. I would, I love a guilt and shame journal because I would probably have the same reaction.

Like, what is wrong with me? 

[00:29:08] Brie Tucker: Hey then you know you're not alone. Cuz all of us have those 

[00:29:11] Eve Rodsky: crazy, like, yes, you're not alone. Why? Like, 

[00:29:14] Brie Tucker: sometimes I'll verbalize my, my guilt or my shame to my husband and he'll be like, he'll just what? No. Same. Most of my guilt and shame is re revolving around him.

I feel so bad that I had to, that I feel shameful that I ask you to help with dinner. Yeah. And he'll be like, are you serious ? 

[00:29:32] Eve Rodsky: Right. No. No. And exactly it unpacks and you'll start seeing some of that gendered stuff. In your journal too, which makes you realize, oh wow, like where did this come from? You know, what message was this?

Did I hear this from? So it's a fun exercise and uh, you know, if anybody does it, of course, they can always reach out to me on Fair Play Life on Instagram and tell us how it went. . 

[00:29:54] JoAnn Crohn: Yeah, definitely. We'll put all those links in the show notes. So thank you so much Eve for joining us. 

[00:29:58] Eve Rodsky: Alright, big hugs. I'm getting on the road now.

 JoAnn will you email me some thriller recommendations? 

[00:30:03] JoAnn Crohn: Yes, I will. most definitely. I have a lot of 'em. I, uh, yeah, I have a lot of 'em. I'll email them. Perfect. 

Okay, so all throughout the episode, Brie, I didn't wanna ask you what we were on with Eve, cuz I didn't wanna put you on the spot. What is your unicorn space? Okay, so 

[00:30:20] Brie Tucker: what do you share with the world? No, that's a really great question because I was wondering the exact same thing I was going to say, but then like the moment came and passed, so I was like, oh, I can't, it's like when of those things where you think of it later and you're like, if I say it now, it's gonna be, Hey guys, remember five minutes later when we were talking about this?

Uh, 

[00:30:36] JoAnn Crohn: I do that all the time at podcast episodes by the way. I'm like, something interesting you said right there. I wanna 

[00:30:40] Brie Tucker: go back to that . But that works with the, it works typically when you say that, cuz you say it right after. Like, I think that, like you guys talked about unicorn time and then it moved on to a different topic and I'm like, oh, okay.

But so I don't know cuz normally I would've said that it's and you know, this, I, I would've said that it's Like going kayaking, paddle boarding, or going to see live music, like those are what I always would consider my. My, what we call unicorn time and balance because there are things that fulfill me, bring me joy that I can do and I can share with my family or and friends or not, and that I feel like it does make me interesting.

There are things that I look forward to in my life, but I don't know if I have a component of sharing it with the world. . 

[00:31:26] JoAnn Crohn: Well, I mean, she mentioned many times about how the podcast is our unicorn space. We do share that with the world. 

[00:31:30] Brie Tucker: So maybe that's it. And maybe it's also a call that I need to actually finally start putting more stuff on my Instagram.

Cuz I post like what, once a month on my Instagram at best. Oh. 

[00:31:39] JoAnn Crohn: Sometimes Instagram though, like social media. Like I always go for the social media things cuz I'm like, . A lot of business advice goes by the thing that, you know, you don't build your business on somebody else's platform. And that's like what social media is.

It's putting, it's putting your stuff and your work out there. Mm-hmm. on something somebody else owns. So it could be ripped away from you at any moment. Basically the, the theory behind. Like when they change algorithms or if they decide to put you in Facebook jail and take away all your privileges.

[00:32:10] Brie Tucker: Stupid Facebook jail hackers come in and erase your profile. Or like, idiots, oh my gosh, idiots so much. It's so, so much. I have a lot of anger towards those things. There. There is, there is. Um, so would that, so would that be though, I guess like, uh, do you think that would be considered a unicorn space? And, and what do you, and what do you feel like your unicorn space.

Is currently , do you feel like it is? I feel the podcast, I dunno, 

[00:32:41] JoAnn Crohn: I feel like I've made a whole career out of my unicorn space. Well, 

[00:32:45] Brie Tucker: that's a 

[00:32:45] JoAnn Crohn: fair statement. I did the writing, I did the everything. And so I, I feel very fulfill. In my line of work that I guess I also experience a unicorn space. 

[00:32:54] Brie Tucker: As somebody who has known you for many, many years, I would say I see your new unicorn space journeys pop up about every 12 to 16 months I see a new really unicorn.

Yeah. Yeah. What is it now? Well, o uh, the in-person. 

[00:33:13] JoAnn Crohn: Oh, well, yeah, i, yeah. 

[00:33:15] Brie Tucker: Yeah. But I think that's where you, 

[00:33:16] JoAnn Crohn: this like something I've been trying for, for five years. 

[00:33:19] Brie Tucker: You have been trying and you're finally getting it to, getting it to completion. Five years and then you're gonna find a new passion that you're gonna get excited about.

[00:33:27] JoAnn Crohn: Yeah. And I don't have to be cagey about it. 

If you guys have seen social media, it is Mom 2.0. This conference, the parenting, um, conference that I've been going to for the past five years, I have also pitched them for the past five years. I'll be like, please. And I hadn't heard anything, hadn't heard anything, and yet Bree's the one who convinced me to pitch again.

And they're like, fine Brie, I'll pitch again. . And I did, and they accepted me. So I was very, very excited. 

[00:33:48] Brie Tucker: See, so I mean, , again, having sat back from a distance started with the blog back when it used to be whimsical. So people, if you don't know that you can dig, dig, dig, dig.

We started as whimsical and they became no guilt mom. But, and then it became a book, and then the first book happened and then it became, um, I think then it became, The balance. Mm-hmm. . And then another book came as a thing and then like a parenting course and like, so it, oh, I forgot the podcast in there.

Podcast came in before balance. So anyways, point being is I have seen all of these passion projects of yours come that. light you up, you get so giddy and excited about them. Mm-hmm. . And you share them with the world and they're like your little, you have so many little babies, so many little, so many little unicorn babies,

[00:34:36] JoAnn Crohn: There are a lot of little, little unicorn babies. It's the, the way to like complete being fascinated by your own life and what you can do. But I mean, sometimes you have to be pushed. I mean, you pushed me into doing, we're doing a no guilt Mom, v i p. . Yes. And it's something that I've wanted to do forever, but have been so scared and Brie sat at me down.

She's like, okay, so we're gonna do this this year, right? 

[00:35:00] Brie Tucker: I won't. Okay. And let me be clear, like if there's one thing Brie doesn't like, it's moving her cheese. I don't like changing things a whole lot. I, I have my parameters on how much change I can handle, but this is something that, you know, kept coming up every, every year and every year you wanted to do it.

Yeah, I'm excited that we sat down and we got it scheduled, and since we do record this early, I'm not sure if there's still tickets, but if there are, you really need to go check it out, people. Mm-hmm. , because, um, I, it's going to be phenomenal. Because again, when Joanne gets passionate about something, it is no holds Bard.

[00:35:33] JoAnn Crohn: I drag everybody around along with me for the ride. . 

[00:35:37] Brie Tucker: Yeah, but you also don't, you also don't half ass it.. It's very . It's very 110% so, or 100 and I don't know however many percentage it can be. So it's the 

[00:35:48] JoAnn Crohn: only way I know to be, so it looks like we need to find you some unicorn space. Where can I push? Ugh. 

[00:35:56] Brie Tucker: So cheese, it's in a good spot right now.

I don't know. I, I, I'll have to think about that some more. Maybe that'll be something that I will, I will think about and work on, you know, at the event, at the, at the retreat. 

[00:36:10] JoAnn Crohn: See, Eve started with like my mom and gardening. Like you have you and music and you and kayaking, but I don't think you would be competitive in kayaking.

Like you don't want 

[00:36:18] Brie Tucker: that. I don't have that competitive bone in me. No, I do not. Uh, I have the, I, I I. So, uh, with me there, there are things I wanna do. I have a, I have a, uh, bucket list of kayaking places I wanna go. Mm-hmm. . So maybe that's it. Mm-hmm. , maybe it's expanding it bigger, which would include me having to learn more kayaking skills and, and all of that.

Like, I only know how to do certain things. I need to, I need to learn how to do a roll . If I wanna do some of the kayaking that I wanna do, I need to learn how to roll so I don't die , I don't drown. 

[00:36:52] JoAnn Crohn: That's a good, good thing to know. Don't die. 

[00:36:55] Brie Tucker: That's the thing they know. Yeah. 

Yeah. Right. Now please do it like slow rivers and lakes.

I wanna go on things faster, but I will have to learn how to get up from underwater if I do that. How do you learn that? You can actually, um, you can actually go places they have like, uh, they can teach you like in a pool setting. Mm-hmm. , I don't even know where to go. Like I just, I know I've seen videos of how you can be taught that.

Um, and I need to look into that. Cause some of the items on my bucket list will never go anywhere if I don't. You gotta 

[00:37:22] JoAnn Crohn: do like kayaking trip or like a ki like a kayaking, an 

[00:37:25] Brie Tucker: adventure or something. Oh, there are, like, I was supposed to go on a huge kayaking trip with a bunch of people and then lovely covid hit and Oh yeah.

It just hasn't really resurfaced since. So I think, and I, you know, we talk about that too in the episode about how, um, the, one of the components of unicorn space is that connection. 

[00:37:44] JoAnn Crohn: Mm-hmm. . 

[00:37:45] Brie Tucker: I think some people are missing that connection because like, it just, COVID has impacted our, so much of us, like it's, it's really hard to get back to where we were socially before, I think.

Mm-hmm. , especially if you're talking about big group things, so, yeah. Because it is, 

[00:38:03] JoAnn Crohn: I think it requires some push. I like the, the connection part. It's a good reminder that that's something. It's a pressure. I 

[00:38:09] Brie Tucker: think we have to work. Yeah, I think we have to work extra hard on that connection component right now.

Yeah. Because it, it's not as easy to fulfill as it was before, because like, you know, before covid I was in a, like four or five different social groups, three different kayaking groups and out of all that, like only two kayaking groups are still there, but they don't do anything together anymore. Mm-hmm.

and, uh, the social groups don't do anything either anymore, so it. Time to start a kayaking group. Oh gosh. Don't tell me. Oh God, you know me. I don't like being in charge of people. Like in terms of like in 

groups of 

[00:38:42] JoAnn Crohn: You love being in charge of people. 

[00:38:43] Brie Tucker: No, . 

I didn't that like a, not in like a social group setting cuz I do not wanna be your mom.

Do not make me like No, no. I don't. Like the last time I was in charge of a group on social media. The principal like went, went crazy on me. And it wasn't even me , just cause I was the one who created the group. I got in trouble. So, yeah. Yeah, I, that, that definitely scarred me, man. . Oh, 

[00:39:10] JoAnn Crohn: I see those. And I'm like, she was wrong.

[00:39:12] Brie Tucker: She was totally wrong. Oh yeah. Totally wrong, but still happened and it is enough to make me be like, okay, Brie is done. I am no longer. Putting together social groups, I will join them. I will help take the lead at things that are happening, but I am no longer in charge of a group. Ferreal people online. It ain't Apple Feral.

Ferrell, , fer Ferrell. It's a good, it's 

[00:39:36] JoAnn Crohn: a good description of those school 

[00:39:37] Brie Tucker: groups. , feral. Yes. Yes. That's how it is. Well, 

[00:39:46] JoAnn Crohn: We hope you enjoyed our, our conversation with Eve and that you're going to find your unicorn space and we're looking for our next unicorn spaces as we speak. So until next time, remember the best mom's a happy mom, take care of you.

We'll see you later. 

[00:39:59] Brie Tucker: Thanks for stopping by.